Sunday, December 03, 2006

Which nativity story?


Hollywood directors would sell their mother if they could make a profit at it. And the new kick for “Christian” films is no exception. The assumption is that anything “religious” will sell to the Christians in America no matter how badly produced. And considering the crap that Christian filmmakers produce, such as the laughable Left Behind series, the assumption may not be off the mark.

The newest entry in this genre is The Nativity Story which CNN called “The greatest ‘Story’ ever dulled. Every since Crazy Mel “the Jews did it” Gibson put his bloody torture film out in Aramaic the desire for authenticity abounds. In this new film: “We are treated to scenes of Nazarene farming, food preparation and religious instruction that have the faint mustiness of an old National Geographic about them.”

The film is described as a joint project of “an evangelical screenwriter and Presbyterian director.” Oh, there is an exciting combination.

The Boston Globe headlined: “Film focuses on bringing accuracy to biblical tale.”

Ah, but it just isn’t so. Nor can it be so. The reason is that there is scant evidence that the biblical account is accurate. In fact it is contradictory and problematic.

The film starts out with Herod’s alleged slaughter of the innocents at the time of the birth of Jesus. Here are two problems. One is that there is no indication anywhere that it happened. If Herod had gone out and slaughtered all the new-born infants it certainly would have been noticed by someone. Other than in the gospels there is no mention of it.

Josephus gives the story of Herod in his Antiquities of the Jews but never seemed to be aware of any mass infanticide. In fact no document of any kind, outside of the gospel of Matthew takes note of this. Not even the other gospels mention it.

Christians have tried to justify the absence of this from any records by saying that the number of infants in Bethlehem could have been just half a dozen so this was not a big deal. But the Bible says that Herod “slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, AND in ALL the coasts thereof, from two years old and under...” The slaughter was alleged to be far more widespread than just Bethlehem. Is it a big deal now?

And it is not likely that Herod did anything at this time. He died before Jesus was born. Even the gospels disagree with each other regarding this. Matthew and Luke say Jesus was born “in the days of Herod the king.” But Luke also says that "It happened in those days that a decree was issued by Caesar Augustus that a census be taken of all that was inhabited. This census first came to pass when Quirinius was governing Syria."

Here is the problem, Herod the Great died 10 years before Cyrenius (or Quirinius) became governor of Syria. One reason no document anywhere mentions the infanticide is because Herod was not alive when Jesus was born.

Josephus wrote of this census for the purpose of taxation. He wrote: “Archelaus's country was assigned to Syria for purposes of paying tribute, and Quirinius, a man of highest rank, was sent by Caesar to take a census of things in Syria and to make an account of Archelaus's estate.” And: “Quirinius was a man of the Senate, who had held other offices, and after going through them all achieved the highest rank. He had a great reputation for other reasons, too. He arrived in Syria with some others, for he was sent by Caesar as a governor, and to be an assessor of their worth. Coponius, who held the rank of knight, was sent along with him to take total command over the Jews. And Quirinius also went to Judaea, since it became part of Syria, to take a census of their worth and to make an account of the possessions of Archelaus.”

Now note what happened. Herod the Great had been the king of Judea. But when he died he was replaced Archelaus. But Josephus writes that Caesar exiled Archelaus in his tenth year because “the leading men in Judaea and Samaria could not endure his cruelty and tyranny and accused him before Caesar” who “went into a rage” and “sent Archelaus into exile” and who was then replaced by Quirinius at which time Judea was put under his control. Herod had died. In-between the reign of Herod and the census of Quirinius, who the gospels specifically mention, there was the ten year reign of Archelaus.

But the gospels say that Herod was king when Jesus was born and they say that when he was born the census of Quirinius was taking place. That was one hell of a long delivery -- ten years in fact. Either the inerrant word of God is wrong about the census by Quirinius or it is wrong when it says Herod was king at the same time. Both can not be correct. In addition the Romans never required everyone return to the place of their birth for a census. The gospel of Luke was wrong on that as well.

Luke wrote that Jesus was born in Bethlehem where Joseph and Mary went to be taxed. They found no room at the inn and were staying in the barn. We have all seen the images of this as it is the famous crèche scene that Christians duplicate every Christmas. You get the baby lying in the manger surrounded by various animals and the Wise Men. But Matthew says the Wise Men did not see Jesus in a manger. “And whey they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him.”

Matthew says Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem and moved to Nazareth. Luke says they lived in Nazareth and went to Bethlehem to be counted in the census.

Matthew said that after the birth of Jesus that Joseph “took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt.” Luke says nothing about Egypt at all instead claiming “they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.”

The virgin birth issue has some problems other than the obvious one. The gospel of Mark completely misses this detail. And the writings of Paul, many of which are considered older than the two gospels that do mention the virgin birth, skipped this claim entirely. Both Matthew and Luke argued that Jesus is descended from David but the genealogies they use to prove this are through Joseph, who if the virgin birth is correct, was not related to Jesus at all. And there is really no need to point out that the genealogies contradict each other as well.

An accurate account of the Nativity story would be a difficult task to undertake since the only written sources for this story don’t agree with each other. And the contradictions here are such that one account or the other (if not both) has to be false.

10 Comments:

Blogger Publius II said...

Your knowledge of the arguments surrounding this supposed controversy is laughable. Either you did nearly no research on the answers that have been provided for your questions, or else you're deliberately trying to mislead people.

Scholars widely accept the explanations given surrounding the historical accounts provided by Luke and Matthew, and they do not contradict each other.

---For example, Augustus conducted no global census, and no more local one makes sense in Luke’s time frame’ (Newsweek). The word for ‘world’ in Luke 2:1 is oikoumenè, which to a Greek meant the Greek world and to a Roman meant the Roman Empire. And it is a historical fact that Augustus decreed that his whole empire should be taxed. And the Greek of Luke 2:2 indicates that the census was one before Quirinius’, which Luke knew about perfectly well.

---Also, despite agreeing on the big ideas, Matthew and Luke diverge in conspicuous ways on details of the event. In Matthew's Nativity, the angelic Annunciation is made to Joseph while Luke's is to Mary.’ This is an example of the way that many liberals and skeptics are challenged in basic logic. It’s amazing how many of them think that a difference is a contradiction. It seems not to have crossed the critic’s mind that the angel informed both Joseph and Mary. There would be an error only if Matthew said that the angel informed only Joseph. Misological media moguls really need a course in elementary logic.

---Your claim that Mark and John do not tell about the nativity at all. But they (and Paul) use language that strongly suggests awareness of the virginal conception. If I need to go into this more, I will. Just ask.

A very good point by point exhaustive explanation of the harmony of the gospel accounts and the historical evidence backing them up can be found here, by Dr. Mark D. Roberts, Ph.D.
http://www.markdroberts.com/htmfiles/resources/jesusbirth.htm

December 05, 2006

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

I will try to keep it brief but it may be difficult with the number of issues on which you make assertions. When you says ”scholars widely accept “ do you mean scholars without a religious bias or with one? I suspect the latter.

The only census for which there is a record in that time frame is the one of Quirinius and the NT clearly says this was a census when Jesus was born and that Q was in charge. Elsewhere it says that when Jesus was born Herod was alive. In fact Herod died 10 years before Q could have done the census. Both claims can not be true. And your reply ignored that and instead went on about a point about what the word “world” means which was not in dispute.

The angel discussion is not relevant to anything I said. And just steams up the issue. One gospel said the wise men fond Jesus in a house. Another says they were in the manger as there was no room in the inn. So from your angel analogy I supposed they had a house but liked sleeping in the barn with the cattle. One said they were Bethlehem and went to Nazareth the other says the were in Nazareth and went to Bethlehem. One says that after he was born they fled to Egypt, the other forgot that detail and says they went to Galilee not Egypt. Of course they had frequent flyer miles so they went back and forth. You completely ignored those points and went on about angels which I never mentioned. You also said nothing about the absence of any record of the slaughter of all babies under two years of age. Nor do you explain how Herod and Q could be ruling when Jesus was born since they ruled 10 years apart.

I never said “Mark and John do not tell about the nativity”. Nativity does not mean virgin birth it simply means birth not the means of conception. What I said was they did not refer to the virgin birth. You must not know the definition of nativity. It is the birth, not the conception, of Jesus. And I hardly call that language which “suggests” they knew about the virgin claims very strong. Especially since virgin births were rampant in the various other religions around the area. It was a rather common occurrence if the other cults are all to be believed.

And please make your own arguments instead of using your comments to place free advertising for fundamentalist nutters on the site. Since I don’t allow preaching directly you want to try the indirect method by using my site to give ad space to people I would not give ad space to. Sort of like when I said don’t preach you placed your email soliciting people to contact you so you could preach privately. Just make your arguments without preaching and we’re fine.

December 05, 2006

 
Blogger Publius II said...

"When you says ”scholars widely accept “ do you mean scholars without a religious bias or with one? I suspect the latter."

Being that we are discussing the texts of the Scriptures, I thought it would be obvious that I'm referring to expert biblical scholars.

The only census for which there is a record in that time frame is the one of Quirinius and the NT clearly says this was a census when Jesus was born and that Q was in charge. Elsewhere it says that when Jesus was born Herod was alive. In fact Herod died 10 years before Q could have done the census. Both claims can not be true. And your reply ignored that and instead went on about a point about what the word “world” means which was not in dispute.

Several learned men have produced solutions of this difficulty, and there are various ways of solving it. One or other of the two following appears to me to be the true meaning of the text.

1. When Augustus published this decree, it is supposed that Quirinus, who was a very active man, and a person in whom the emperor confided, was sent into Syria and Judea with extraordinary powers, to make the census here mentioned. Though, at that time, he was not governor of Syria, for Quintilius Varus was then president and that when he came, ten or twelve years after, into the presidency of Syria, there was another census made, to both of which Luke alludes to, when he says, "This was the first assessment of Cyrenius, governor of Syria," which is an accurate translation of the words. The passage, thus translated, does not say that this assessment was made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria, which would not have been the truth, but that this was the first assessment which Cyrenius, who was (i.e. afterwards) governor of Syria, made; for after he became governor, he made a second. The highly praised scholar Lardner defends this opinion in a very satisfactory and masterly manner.

2. The second way of solving this difficulty is by translating the words differently, which is very possible, due to appearence of the original script: "This census was made BEFORE Cyrenius was governor of Syria; or, before that of Cyrenius. This sense the word "proton" appears to have, John 1:20: "oti proton mou hn," for he was BEFORE me. John 15:18: The world hated me BEFORE (proton) it hated you. See also 2 Sam. 19:43.

Instead of "prot`e," some critics read "pro th`e", "This enrolment was made BEFORE THAT of Cyrenius." Some other eminent and learned men have been of this opinion, but it has not yet been supported by any manuscripts yet discovered.

The angel discussion is not relevant to anything I said. And just steams up the issue. One gospel said the wise men fond Jesus in a house. Another says they were in the manger as there was no room in the inn. So from your angel analogy I supposed they had a house but liked sleeping in the barn with the cattle.

Actually the angel comment was very relevent, as you're again committing the same mistake that I was commenting about by using the angel comment as an example. The text doesn't say the same people found him both places. The text specifically says that one group of people (ie. the Magi) found them in the house, indicating it was sometime AFTER the night of the birth. The text in the other account doesn't even MENTION the Magi, and instead is talking about the shepherds that were around on the night he was born. This is clear from the text. As would be consistent with the story, He was born in the manger because there was no room in the inn due to everybody traveling for this census, and then sometime after, they were moved to a house somewhere.

"One said they were in Bethlehem and went to Nazareth the other says they were in Nazareth and went to Bethlehem. One says that after he was born they fled to Egypt, the other forgot that detail and says they went to Galilee not Egypt."

Where does it say they were in Nazareth first? Both accounts clearly state that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Both accounts say they then went to Nazareth, but Matthew's account tells us a little more than Luke's in that they first fled to Egypt for an undisclosed amount of time until Herod was dead, and THEN went to Nazareth. Again, no contradiction.

You also said nothing about the absence of any record of the slaughter of all babies under two years of age.

Do know how big Bethlehem was at that time? Depending on how far you want to expand "the surrounding vicinity" discription, then you might have had all of 5 to 10 kids slaughtered, which sadly would not have been all that uncommon for not only Herod, but any other ruler of that day in Palestine.

"Nor do you explain how Herod and Q could be ruling when Jesus was born since they ruled 10 years apart."

If the above explanation of the census problem is correct, it would also solve this problem.

"I never said “Mark and John do not tell about the nativity”. Nativity does not mean virgin birth it simply means birth not the means of conception."

My apologies, I meant to say "virgin birth" not just "nativity."

And though virgin births were common in other religions, this one is different from all the rest in several aspects. I can go into this more, if you so wish. I suspect you'll already be criticizing me for using up so much space on this topic .. even though I try to accomodate by simply providing links to where the points have already been made previously.

December 08, 2006

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

I simply don't have time to read your comments and reply. As I've said before if you flood me with comments you impose on my time and sometimes I can't. I have just responded to two comments. Now I have a long one and I see two more waiting. It is not possible. For me it is late and I need to sleep. I have a late night snack getting cold as I try to go through the massive number of emails I have waiting. And it can take up to 30 or 40 minutes to read your comments and draft a reply. So I'm passing on this unread for that reason. Maybe at some point I'll have time to get back to it and remember to do so. No promises.

December 08, 2006

 
Blogger Publius II said...

My apologies for the length of the comment. It was impossible to respond adequately without it however. If you don't have time to get to it, that's fine.

December 11, 2006

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

Length can be an issue depending on the day and this week I'm packing as I'm away for 3 months (away not in the blog sense however). But it is also the number of posts. I had just responded to two other comments you left on the site (not all in the same spot). Then I opened it and saw this long one and it was going on 3:30 or 4:00 am at the time. And I saw two more comments which I didn't even have a chance to read. Add in five comments that evening, one long one, and it was too much to handle under the time constraints.

December 11, 2006

 
Blogger Publius II said...

Post less interesting articles per day. :) You sometime post 2 or 3 articles a day, which you know I can't resist commenting on. ;) And so when 2 or 3 days go by and we're still discussing those articles, as well as the new articles, it adds up. :)

December 11, 2006

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

Are you saying that like Oscar Wilde you can resist anything but temptation? I'm just saying I can't possibly reply when so many come in.

December 11, 2006

 
Blogger Gen said...

"At my 5th birthday in 1996 president George W. Bush of the U.S. showed up." Yet, I am assuming thatyou know that he was later a president in 2000-2008!

I guess she never replied: αυτη η απογραφη πρωτη εγενετο ηγεμονευοντος της συριας κυρηνιου
therefore, means "This happened to be the first assessment of Cyrenius, [who was afterwards] governor of Syria;" because,after all, the governor of Syria became governor and madea second Census. Luke in Acts 5 talks about this sames Census, so this author cannot be nuts! Hemust be correct, especially since Luke did his research from top to bottom of this issue and the whole life of Jesus. He is using documentary sources that we do not have access today. The only thing we can do is honor his research, and not throw him out.

May 25, 2008

 
Blogger GodlessZone said...

You have no evidence that Luke was "using documentary sources that we do not have access [to] today." You have no evidence he did "research". And, in fact, if the Bible were inspired research is the last thing he would need to do.

Second the contradiction is between Mark and Luke so "honoring" one still means trashing the other one.

May 27, 2008

 

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